AJ and Jason Discuss: Avengers Age of Ultron

SPOILER ALERT:  I'm pretty sure anybody who would read a discussion of Avengers Age of Ultron has already seen the movie, but here is your spoiler warning just in case.

AJ

Okay, Jason. We've both seen Avengers 2 and we both have things we want to say about it. So let's start easy. Give me a score, 1-10 with 10 being the greatest movie ever created in the history of humanity, and give me 3 basic thoughts about the movie. 

Jason

Ranking a movie 1-10 is not easy my friend, so I'll go with a solid 7, the safest of all rankings.  I think Dr. Strangelove is the best movie ever made and a 10+, while Back to the Future is my favorite movie of all time, but probably an 8 because I'm weird like that.  7 is safe for Avengers: Age of Zingertron because I liked it, but I was also annoyed by a few things.  

I thought the direction was really, really good.  Joss Whedon can really frame a shot to look like a comic book panel, especially during action scenes.  The opening scene shot of the whole team attacking Hydra in the woods was great.  The final fight with the whole team in a circle fighting legions of robots was great as well.  Whedon also really shines during the quiet moments too like the scene where everyone was having drinks and taking turns trying to lift Thor's hammer.  However, I thought it was unfortunate that SO MUCH was packed into this movie that more of these great quiet moments had to be left out for non-stop action, although I realize how nitpicky that is and I should apply for a job with CinemaSins.

Two gripes I legitimately have are with the pacing and SickBurnBroTron, but I'll hold off on him for now.  The pacing is really odd.  Everything seems to happen way too fast, partly because of "I have more one-liners than Terminator Tron's" stupid plan, but also because of the 18 settings for the movie.  They're in New York! Now Africa!  Korea!  Eastern Europe!  It's hard to get a sense of where and when.  I'm confused on the timeframe.  Did these events occur over a few days, a week, several weeks?

What did you think of the movie overall and I'm curious if you have any thoughts on the pacing.  (I am aware I gave you two thoughts and went more in depth than "basic".  You can't tell me what to do!).

AJ

I liked the movie overall. I think a 7 is completely appropriate for it. It was a complicated film that had a lot of things to try to accomplish. They had to build off not only the first Avengers movie but keep in line as each of the main stars also had another movie of their own to develop their characters. It's a lot of balls to juggle at once and I think they did an admirable job of it overall.

My biggest gripe with the film was probably that they spent too little time on THIS film and too much time making call backs to previous films or setting characters up for what they're going to be doing in the future. The most glaring example of this was the Thor flashback, which we saw several times and was 100% about Ragnarok and not Age of Ultron. I understand the need to move characters along because they all have solo films to get to after this but the Avengers movies are about the Avengers being together. Devoting significant chunks of time to splitting them up only serves to defeat the purpose of the entire Avengers concept - they all have solo films, let them do their solo shit there.

A big to do has been made about the decisions regarding Hawkeye, his big reveal, and how it was handled. For me, I enjoyed it, appreciated it, and thought almost nothing of it beyond that. It was nice to see him get serious screen time and finally provide some layer of depth to a character making like his 5th appearance. The end.

The shit with Nick Fury, however, was pure nonsense. The guy randomly shows up at Hawkeye's hideout, NO EXPLANATION WHATSOEVER, and proceeds to drop random motivational bombs, including his whole "no fancy SHIELD toys this time, bros", only to randomly show up again later in the movie....with a fucking helicarrier. So...about that lack of SHIELD toys....

And yes, I absolutely have thoughts about the pacing. I completely agree with everything you said. You know they handled it poorly when nerds have been arguing on the internet for a week that they were in Wakanda for the vibranium or not. When people who are devoted to the movies aren't 100% where the movie is even taking place, you've made some mistakes along the way. It was very peculiar.

All of that said, there were things I definitely loved about the film. Scarlet Witch was excellent. Quicksilver, despite not being given much to do, was enjoyable to watch in action. The tiny moments always make big differences to nerds like me. I loved the small touches scattered throughout. Meeting Ultron for the first time and he was wearing the crimson cape was awesome, as it was a nod to the Crimson Cowl in the comics. I loved seeing Vision and Scarlet Witch interact, knowing they have a big future together. I loved more explanation of the stones and their importance and probably my favorite moment in the entire movie was during the credits when Thanos put on the Infinity Gauntlet. I remember being excited when they were making the first Thor movie and teased the Infinity Gauntlet. A million years and a complete Marvel explosion later, WE'RE FINALLY ABOUT TO SEE IT PAY OFF. YES.

Take that, two thoughts. 

Jason

Oh man, I forgot about the magical helicarrier.  That was some plot convenience if I've ever seen it.

Good points on much of the movie acting as a set up for future solo films.  I thought those scenes came across as padding in a movie that really didn't need it.  So much was already going on.  That said, I did like the decision to give characters who don't have solo movies, mainly Hawkeye and Black Widow, more screen time for character depth.  Hawkeye's scenes were handled well and I particularly like the line near the end of the movie where Hawkeye acknowledges how ridiculous it is that he is fighting robots with a bow and arrow. It was fun to see him have a sense of humor being on a team with overpowered weirdos. Family man Hawkeye was also less weird than I thought it would be and basically turns him into something like the "every man" of the group.  Someone to relate too....kinda.   

Black Widow's scenes, however, were more problematic.  Previous movies hint at Black Widow having a dark past in which she did things she is not so proud of.  Loki has a conversation with her in the first Avengers where she talks about having "red in her ledger" and Loki responds by questioning if she can truly make up for the terrible things she did in her past.  This is a classic redemption arc....which was thrown away in favor of being a sterile "monster"?  While much of the internet thought this was worthy of driving Whedon off of Twitter for, I hated it more for its continuity rather than some sexist statement (although it is a little sexist still since the whole wanting babies thing seems to come out of left field).  It's also small potatoes when the monster she is trying to relate too is a giant green rage ogre.  Not all monsters are equal.  

Side note:  Some people on the internet thought Whedon was being sexist with her being a damsel in distress but I thought it was okay.  Her kidnapping isn't the main focus of the movie, she's the reason the rest of the team finds out where Ultron is, and she basically saves herself so, whatever.  It's more a product of lazy writing than anything.  

I thought that most of the new characters were okay.  I agree with you on Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver,  even if Scarlet Witch's powers were vaguely explained.  Quicksilver is overpowered as hell so it was probably a good thing they killed him off.  Vision is okay but divorced from the comics, I bet many people think Vision IS Jarvis.  He also is a good way to help explain what the hell the infinity gems are while also keeping them purposely mysterious.  

But....there is one other new character who I thought was a huge disappointment.  Ultron was nothing what I expected and the biggest flaw in this movie for me.  Before I tackle this, do you have any thoughts on the villain?  I'm afraid of turning this reply into a 2,000 word essay.  

AJ

I guess it's hard for me say that Ultron was a disappointment. I never liked the Ultron comic book story line and was pretty comfortable with the fact that I wasn't going to enjoy this, either. His humorous little quips were classic Whedon and didn't really bother me much. Because this movie was going to be so self-contained, I wish they would have just gone straight ahead and made Hulk the villain. It would've skipped the waste of time Ultron story line, the GOD AWFUL Hulk-Black Widow romance, and would have set Hulk up PERFECTLY for the Planet Hulk movie...which is where he's going to end up anyway.

This movie was all about getting the main characters to Civil War, Ragnarok, and Infinity War in one piece. I understood why they had Ultron be the villain. It was a popular story line, it fit with Tony's maniacal obsession with protecting the Earth on his own, and it was easily contained to one movie. What happened instead was they ended up wasting a perfectly fine villain and turned him into more of a cartoon than he ever was in the comics. It's basically a repeat of what Iron Man 2 did to Whiplash.

One last point I wanted to touch on was you mentioning them keeping the infinity gems purposely mysterious. I hate this. We are not 3 Iron Man, 2 Cap, 2 Thor, 2 Avengers, and 1 Guardian of the Galaxy movies into the MCU, which has spent the ENTIRE TIME  building towards the Infinity War. When those movies start, I do not want to spend ANY time fucking explaining them. They've been dancing around them for TEN god damn movies by now and all we REALLY have is the scene with The Collector in Guardians explaining them. UNLESS EVERYONE WAS PAYING CLOSE ATTENTION, we're going to have to re-visit this shit in what will be WELL COVERED TERRITORY by the time Infinity War rolls around! I'M CLEARLY NOT PLEASED WITH THIS. Of all the AMAZING things they've done to setup this universe and these movies, this is BY FAR my longest-standing gripe with the plan as a whole.

Now I know you have lots to say about Ultron. So hit me, dawg. 

Jason

Now that I think about it, I agree with what you said about the Infinity Gems.  I'm sick of origin stories as it is and I have a suspicion that Infinity War Part 1 is going to be the origin story of magic rocks.

I've been of the opinion that the MCU has had difficulty establishing any interesting villains.  They never seem to be that much of a threat to the heroes, their motives range from generic evil to revenge against the hero, and most of them exist due to the heroes incompetence.   Iron Man mostly fights other Iron Men instead of Whiplash or The Mandarin who was turned into a joke.  Red Skull is a Nazi.  Hydra just wants power.  Loki?  I have NEVER understood why this guy is so popular.  He's a whiny baby who is angry that his dad loves his brother more.  And...Loki is the best villain to date, which says more than I ever could.

Ultron was intriging because AI is usually depicted as cold, humorless, amoral, and logical to a zero-sum fault in movies.  It also didn't help that the trailers made him look intimidating as hell, like, "YES.  This guy is gonna give the ludicrously overpowered Avengers a real fight."  Instead, he was a wise-cracking, strangely under powered, hypocritical robot who monologued about evolution while simultaneously wanting to build himself a body.  Shouldn't the coldly logical robot, who has a coldly logical motive to end all war by killing everybody (Oh my Cthulhu, he HAS REAPER LOGIC), realize he's better off just jumping from robot to robot?  How can he claim to be a superior evolved being when he wants to make himself more human, while also wanting to kill all humans?

Also, I'm not trying to say a zinger-flinging villain can't be good, but with Ultron it went too far.  When the Hulk jumps onto the jet and Ultron says, "Oh god, what now", I couldn't help but roll my eyes.  I half expected him to raise his hands, look directly into the camera and say, "Can this day GET any worse", followed by a laugh track.  I get that he took on some of Stark's personality since he created him but...I think I would have prefered the stereotype AI character.  Ultron seems closer to Bender from Futurama rather than Skynet from Terminator.  

Oh, and Ultron got trounced by the Avengers.  Just like the aliens in the first movie, I never felt like he COULD win.  Obviously, we all know the heroes in a PG-13 comic book movie are going to win, but I want them to have to work for it a little.  Ultron is just another villain who doesn't pose a threat.  Hell, he gets his ass kicked during his reveal when The Avengers didn't have their gear, were completely taken by surprise, and FUCKING DRUNK.  If Ultron can't put up a fight then, what the hell is he going to do for the rest of the movie?  The Avengers are too powerful.  Thanos sure is taking his sweet time.  

I feel like I could write a novel about Ultron but I'll stop here.  Speaking of things getting long, we should probably wrap this up.  Any lingering thoughts?  Counter-points to my Ultron hate?  Reasons why Civil War is a sub-title to a Captain America movie despite having half the Avengers in it? 

AJ

I gave you the floor for Ultron. I don't have any particularly strong disagreements about what you said. A lot of nodding and "yeah, you tell em" went on while reading all of it. I will say Civil War is my favorite comic book story line ever and they had better not fuck it up but that's a rant for another day.

My last thought on Avengers 2 is that walking out of the theater, I liked it. It wasn't a slam dunk like the first one in my eyes but it accomplished a lot of its goals and as the second movie of a series it turned out okay. It was a good, solid, flawed comic book movie. I'm ready to close the book on this sucker so we can gear up for Mad Max next week!!

Jason

Agreed.  Ultron aside, I actually did like this movie despite spending so much time complaining about it.  It was fun.  Not as good as the first but not as bad as a few others in the MCU.  

And yeah, I am SO stoked for Mad Max Fury Road.  Till next time!

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